I'm just off The Jeremy Vine Show on BBC Radio 2, where I was debating the needs of the Catholic Church. My sparring partner was a young (I think) Englishman who appears to embrace the Church as it is. Maybe it's different in England. In Ireland, the Catholic Church is on the ropes.
Let's, with an effort, leave aside the clerical sexual abuse scandal - not because it doesn't matter but because it has been highlighted already as a ghastly stain on the Church. (Mind you, you're more liable to be abused by a relative than by a Catholic priest.) A number of things about the Catholic Church in Ireland appall me.
1. Its attitude to young people. Or rather non-attitude. Young people of Catholic background very largely find the Church at best boring and irrelevant, at worst cold and repellent. The Church's response? Nothing. Zilch. Rien. I know there are honourable exceptions to this but for the most part, young people leave the Church to the oldies.
2. Democracy. Or rather, non-democracy. From the Pope at the top to the parish priest at grassroots level, there's an obsession with keeping control, making sure those seen as further down the faith ladder don't come tramping where they don't belong. The windows of the Church which John XXIII tried to fling open have been nailed shut. Priests like Tony Flannery, Owen O'Sullivan, Brian D'Arcy have been silenced. Even to discuss topics such as celibacy, women priests, homosexuality is, to use Thatcher's word, out.
I could go on but life is short. Anyone who thinks that by clinging to the orthodox, following the rules 'faithfully', putting your brain in neutral, is deluding themselves. There are good and even heroic priests and Catholic people in Ireland. But as an institution, the Catholic Church in Ireland is a mess.
"Democracy. Or rather, non-democracy. From the Pope at the top to the parish priest at grassroots level, there's an obsession with keeping control, making sure those seen as further down the faith ladder don't come tramping where they don't belong."
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like top-down governance, the presbyterians or methodists provide a much more democratic model. Each congregation, for example, votes for their minister, and the moderator rotates annually so as not to have too much power at the top. This complaint of yours is essential protestantism.
Jude, all religion is in a mess - more and more people are realising it is utter tripe and walking away.
ReplyDeleteMy religion is Wonders of Life on Sunday evening at the moment - it answers all the questions i have - not some ponce in a silly hat sitting in Rome surrounded by a crowd of yes-men.
Jose
Thanks for thoughts, Anons 14:21 and 15:02. You're quite right, 14:21 - Presbyterians and Methodists have a much more democratic structure. One snag: they also have different beliefs.
ReplyDelete15:02 - why is it that non-believers feel free to toss insults at those who hold a religious faith, but would be affronted - and rightly - if people of faith began to insult them?
Jude
ReplyDeleteAs an agnostic/atheist (haven't quite made up my mind yet) I have no bone to crunch with any form of organised religion.
But.
Once anyone starts asking Catholicism to do things differently they are getting into Protestantism.
And as we have seen Catholicism doesn't respond to demands for change and by its very nature cannot.
Now I have every sympathy with the way Irish catholics have been treated with contempt and distaste by the Church they believed in and adhered to.
If they are no longer happy/satisfied with it nothing is stopping them from setting up an Irish Catholic Church.
However it seems to me we have already got one that offers a lot of what they want - the Church of Ireland.
As I said I am not pushing any Church but if you don't like what you have got nothing is stopping people from setting up their own church, walking towards another Christian denomination or towards atheism/agnosticism.
Anon 21:28 - I am touched by the concern for my spiritual welfare. But "Once anyone starts asking Catholicism to do things differently they are getting into Protestantism"...Mmm. So in answer to the question "Is the Pope a Catholic?", John XXIII who set up the Second Vatican Council to do things radically differently must answer "No". A Protestant plot the whole time...be the hokey. Well spotted.
ReplyDeleteTo give a snap shot from one of the "young people" (...mid 20s, not really young anymore!) who Jude referred to; Catholic educated, brought to Mass every weekend by the religious parents, overall most of the important moral stuff sunk in deep (I say most!) - however from about the ages of 15 to 18/19 - the age you know enough to question the world and be all rebellious n' stuff - I read up on the history of the church and realised how murky and well, man made most of it was.
ReplyDeleteYou could then say in a way I flirted with protestantism for a couple more years (though I didn't realise it at the time, or would have started supporting Rangers, haha) - basically still believing in the catholic faith but not the church - thinking if the church could modernize, ya know, allow women priests, do away with celibacy, allow gay marriage, allow contraception, more democracy and grass roots input (all the stuff most young catholics believe is right in 2013) - then I'd be back on board 100%.
That brief spell quickly turned to outright atheism, partly because I realised the church just doesn't do democracy, simple as - and partly my questioning and probing of my beliefs, for me reached their natural conclusion. I am not what I would term a militant atheist - if people want to believe whatever and it makes them happy and content, I'm genuinely happy for them and have no wish to convince them otherwise - so long as they keep those beliefs out of my face.
The reason I feel it is at all relevant to post this, is from discussion with friends and acquaintances - this seems to be the same journey virtually my entire peer group has gone through to a lesser or greater extent - sure some still go to mass the odd time to keep the parents happy and yeah probably most will want to send their kids to a catholic school - but when push comes to shove, the outlook for the church (probably any church) with the next generation(s) in Ireland ain't good.
"Why is it that non-believers feel free to toss insults at those who hold a religious faith, but would be affronted - and rightly - if people of faith began to insult them?"
ReplyDeleteBelievers have been tossing insults at non-believer's for hundreds of years, never mind suppressing their scientific fact based beliefs and on numerous occasions subjecting them to torture and death due to their fact based belief contradicting susceptible religious dogma.
Fortunately for non-believers the tide is slowly turning – the past 200 years of scientific research and discovery has proved organised religion to be nothing more than conspiracy and lies. More and more people are rejecting religious belief and embracing humanism and free thought.
It baffles me that an erudite chap like yourself believes this nonsense (apologies if i have assumed wrongly here) – I can only assume it is due (no fault of your own) to the time at which you born and that drummed in Catholic guilt that affects most of your generation.
I couldn’t have put it better myself when you said ..."Young people of Catholic background very largely find the Church at best boring and irrelevant"... because it is irrelevant - young people exposed to science, technology and discovery easily see through the church's archaic doctrine - the Catholic church is a failing theocracy in Ireland and the rest of the world (i am obviously aware the surge of Christianity in South America, China and Africa, i would counter this with it's significant rejection in Europe, Australasia and North America).
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” George Orwell
Anon 10:35 - I'm pleased and flattered you think of me as intelligent. Maybe I'm just another dumb sucker, believing in fairytales. Or maybe not. Maybe applying scientific criteria to spiritual matters makes as much sense as measuring sense of humour with a thermometer. Your attack on 'this nonsense' simply verifies the point I made - that non-believers have no problem with laying into anyone who holds a different outlook on existence. I accept the point about religious persecution in the past completely. Bloody Queen Mary was only matched by persecution of Catholicism, all in the name of God. But I don't think that is justification for insulting sincere people of religious belief today. As an intelligent person yourself, a moment's thought should let you see that.
ReplyDeleteJude
ReplyDeleteOk ok ok, i concede! My attack mirrors that of perhaps a fundamentalist believer disagreeing with a non-believer.
I have discussed this a lot with a friend recently - i keep getting carried away. the reason being i think lies with my frustration as a former believer indoctrinated since birth, not my choice (a whole other issue)
I see the whole thing now as a quite obvious lie - i have witnessed the benefits of religion for some, eg, through charity and perhaps the comfort some people take from it (two things that can and do work without religious involvement ) - but for me none of it adds up - for me science, reason, and evidence prove religion to be a lie - It is not the believers i mean to insult, it is organised religion where my frustration and aggravation lies with!
I have no problem with believers in general, I can assure you I don’t insult colleagues, friends or family members on a daily basis! (and I would take back if possible and concede referring to the pope in the above comment as a ‘ponce’ was reactionary). The religion thing truly baffles me though, especially when there are so many ways in which its authority can be questioned and disproved – not even necessarily with evidence (scientific and historical) but with reason and thought.
Jose
(@joseportordonez)
I think when you realise that the priorities of the Catholic church are:
ReplyDelete1. Power
2. Control
3. Money
4. Religion
Then you'll realise that They simply cannot change. Its a crying shame, I know some absolutely wonderful priests, but these great men are not high up in the church or drunk on power.
The Church is dying a death with only a few very hard-core believers between the ages of 18-35, there is no hope for religion in a modern enlightened society.
Ryanm29 why is it that if you do not have faith, you are not faithless, but enlightened? As we move forward in an increasingly secular society are we happier? I for one am happy to have faith and to pass it o. To my children. It is your decision to deprive your children from a faith, but don't put those of is with faith down by terming yourself "enlightened".
DeleteHow refreshing, Ryan - well said.
ReplyDeleteJude to reply to your comment "You're quite right, 14:21 - Presbyterians and Methodists have a much more democratic structure. One snag: they also have different beliefs."
ReplyDeleteThanks for getting back. but I am kind of intrigued. My own view (as a presbyterian) is that my beliefs are 99% same as those of other Christian churches, being followers of Christ, rather than being determined by the presbyterian church itself. So I am really intrigued by your reply and would love to know: do you really think the belief differences between the Catholic church and the presbyerian church are important to you? If so which is the most important aspets of those differences?
Anon 01:21 - I'm going to have to drop (again) this habit of writing a blog, getting responses and then responding to responses. Life is short. But briefly re Catholic Church and Presbyterian Church:
ReplyDeleteCatholics believe in Transubstantiation - i.e., bread and wine become Body and Blood of Christ; they believe in the power of a priest to act as intermediary for the forgiveness of sins. Those would be two important ones. I'm sure there are others. I've no doubt we could have an interesting discussion on this, lasting for hours, but you'll have to believe me (faith again) that I just don't have the time to keep coming back. Sorry.
Thanks Jude. It's interesting to me that those are important to you.
Delete