tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post1026662111013522427..comments2023-11-03T08:40:03.424+00:00Comments on Jude Collins: Ann Travers, whataboutery and unique painJude Collinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02255073034338282041noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-51369061311609881652012-11-27T16:49:32.564+00:002012-11-27T16:49:32.564+00:00Anonymous, the RUC didn't cover it up. They b...Anonymous, the RUC didn't cover it up. They brought the case to court and the murderers were convicted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-18383855653710607522012-11-25T16:30:46.327+00:002012-11-25T16:30:46.327+00:00Jude,we're still waiting for your response to ...Jude,we're still waiting for your response to Mick!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-82306476565834940602012-11-25T09:54:30.486+00:002012-11-25T09:54:30.486+00:00Er, I'll get me coat...Er, I'll get me coat...Mickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09172035156183790535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-53558366330777305492012-11-24T19:15:28.475+00:002012-11-24T19:15:28.475+00:00Give her money such as the UDR got,Give her money such as the UDR got,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-25986419374518537592012-11-24T16:34:09.512+00:002012-11-24T16:34:09.512+00:00Jude;I appreciate you don't reply to anonymous...Jude;I appreciate you don't reply to anonymous posters but surel the great Mr Fealty deserves a response!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-85309570788666366002012-11-24T13:39:13.445+00:002012-11-24T13:39:13.445+00:00Just stop digging Jude
I don't see much progre...Just stop digging Jude<br />I don't see much progress in Jude's attitude I'm afraid. He is unlikey to use the word 'murder', given his view that it was war and terrible things happen in wars.<br />Personally I see no comfort for him there.<br />Even calling it a 'just war', does not excuse barbaric acts, in the same way that arguing for WW2 as a 'just war' does not excuse the bombing of Dresden or Hamburg.<br />Mick<br />Jude's comment moderation comes dropping slow, making debate fairly ponderous.giordanobrunonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-51531620794019317312012-11-24T08:34:58.676+00:002012-11-24T08:34:58.676+00:00I think the blogger software may have snaffled my ...I think the blogger software may have snaffled my longer comment. If it hasn't please ignore this short precis Jude.<br /><br />Whataboutery is not appropriate when your opponent is not claiming either/or. Outrage with the church was justified, but the assertion that the church was a singular offender was one-eyed and in many cases rather selfserving. <br /><br />Anne would, I am pretty sure, be support of the families of the Pitchfork Murder victims, as she is to those who died in Ballymurphy/Springfield Park and ALL the others who died on those terrible days that followed the imposition of internment. <br /><br />The best we can do, in lieu of real justice is to treat all victims (regardless of their name, religion or political status) with proper dignity and not try to make political capital where there is, frankly, none to be had.<br /><br />CF,<br /><br />I completely agree with that mediocre website you mentioned, and for one reason and one only: nothing I've read of that debate demonstrates a better explanation. <br /><br />But I'll happily stand to be corrected on that.Mickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09172035156183790535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-36528120956614817712012-11-24T08:25:20.530+00:002012-11-24T08:25:20.530+00:00I've no problem with the whataboutery line whe...I've no problem with the whataboutery line when it's deployed in the manner described by Jude above. However, for it to work in this case you have to believe that Ms Travers is making an exclusive claim for her and her own family. <br /><br />In fact, I've only ever heard her talk about her direct experience of pain as one of many. I've never heard her ask for exclusive privileges or deny anyone her support in getting to the truth of what happened to their loved ones.<br /><br />If the victim is not deploying an either/or operation here, it surely stands to reason she'd support the unmasking of the perpetrators of the pitchfork murders? I don't know what decent, moral, thinking person wouldn't.<br /><br />The reasons we can't are varied. Some of them enumerated by Jude Whyte on the View, aging of evidence, death of key witnesses, etc. More importantly, any collective move would have to come with political assurances no one really wants to give.<br /><br />The McGeough case demonstrates (if such were ever needed) just how vulnerable former IRA volunteers are to the long arm of the law, as it things stand. <br /><br />There is little incentive for the British to tip a bunch of 'get-out-of-jail-free' cards on the table and have them (and a whole bunch of monomaniacal Loyalist killers) walk off into the sunset, whilst the reputation of the RUC, UDR et al is dragged post facto through the gutter.<br /><br />In the meantime, the killers and relatives of the killed and maimed have to find a way of living with each other. It's a long lonely and hateful journey, whether you're a Finucane, a resident of Kingsmill, or a member of the Travers family.<br /><br />The best we can do (and it may turn out in the long term to be all we can do) in the meantime (in lieu of proper justice in any of these cases) is to treat all the survivors with some decency and respect. <br /><br />CF, as for the vote in Stormont, I heard little in that which discussed principle of the censure. I don't expect you to ignore the politics of the Travers case, but on what grounds did you plan to censure Wells? Mickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09172035156183790535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-39718610451119251592012-11-23T23:30:14.547+00:002012-11-23T23:30:14.547+00:00Well it's some kind of progress Jude. Previous...Well it's some kind of progress Jude. Previously you were telling us that putting a gun to a 22 year old's head outside church was something like causing death by reckless driving. Now it's "murder by all means, if that’s how you see it". Well thanks Jude. That is actually how most normal people do see it. Generous of you to allow us that.<br /><br />Anne Travers isn't "society". She's Anne Travers. What suits society may not actually suit her and she's entitled to say so. A moral society measures itself by the condition of the least advantaged, not by the utility of the majority. Shooting wee girls in the head isn't justified by whatever micrometrical progress you think may have been earned for that part of society backing the murderers. <br /><br />And the difference between Mary McArdle's situation and the pitchfork killers' is that despite her history as a killer of young women Mary McArdle has assigned to herself the right to continue to bring her worldview to bear on wider society. I'm quite sure that if the pitchfork killers turn out to be involved in our government you'll find the same revulsion. Maybe you could devote some of your formidable forensic reasoning to finding out if that's the case.Just stop digging Judenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-64478372330595920982012-11-23T19:10:29.852+00:002012-11-23T19:10:29.852+00:00Jude, you forgot to mention it was the British Arm...Jude, you forgot to mention it was the British Army who carried out the "pitchfork murders" and that this was coverered up by the RUC. <br />The truth came out during the appeal for information about the "Yorkshire Ripper". The TV appeal said that the "Ripper" would have a history of extreme violence in his past. <br />A soldier who witnessed the Fermanagh murders answered the appeal. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-35549432131573240672012-11-23T16:03:10.294+00:002012-11-23T16:03:10.294+00:00Exile on Mainstreet
I think you could be right.If ...Exile on Mainstreet<br />I think you could be right.If memory serves me correctly,the murder may have been committed in Fermanagh.Judes booklet can probably assist and clarify.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-73663812140835564272012-11-23T10:33:15.873+00:002012-11-23T10:33:15.873+00:00Hi Jude,
From memory, serving Scottish soldiers c...Hi Jude,<br /><br />From memory, serving Scottish soldiers carried out, and were convicted of, the "pitchfork" murders. <br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/cr4rcte<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-82960153184405945212012-11-23T10:18:28.257+00:002012-11-23T10:18:28.257+00:00How do you square this with your demand for a Pat ...How do you square this with your demand for a Pat Finucane inquiry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-12160945974281927782012-11-23T08:51:31.709+00:002012-11-23T08:51:31.709+00:00I think the person IRA, loyalists and State actors...I think the person IRA, loyalists and State actors fear most is the articulate victim....the McCartney sisters for example.<br />Those of us a shy or nervous disposition but blessed with being educated and articulate would surely be emboldened by the loss of a family member. Im sure I would be "in the face" of those who had done me wrong.<br />It follows that Ms Travers was an impressive witness and made Mitchel McLaughlin look uncomfortable. <br />But a "victim" cannot really be cross questioned.<br />Caral had a right to appoint Mary McArdle.<br />She also has the right to behave insensitively and o be stupid. And Carals political opponents have the right to point hat out effectively.<br />Apponting Mary McArdle was bad politics. A special advisor should never be the story.<br />At least David Cameron could (just about) claim that he could not foresee a problem with Andy Coulson.<br />Yet it was odd that Ms Travers appeared as a witness to the Justice committee just two days after that vote on Jim Wells.<br />Was reference made to it?<br />The point has been made on a mediocre neutral website that the vote on Wells was tribal. It wasnt tribal at all. The Alliance Party (not the most reliable neutrals) voted against Wells .....predictably DUP/SF backed their guy but the right thing was to vote for censuring Wells.<br />The SDLP of which I am a member did the right thing.<br />Of course the SDLP has supported Ann Travers. This might be held to be (a) the right thing to do or (b) opportunistic. Or both. Either way SF made a decision.<br />Yet as far as I know Ms Travers did not turn round to the Justice Committe and say "I want to thank DUP especially Jim Wells for supporting me........and thanks to UUP for supporting Wells".<br />Nor did she turn to SDLP and Alliance MLAs and say "You are evil.....I thought you were my friends".<br />Simple fact..SF called the McArdle thing wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-52073763474424989572012-11-23T08:49:15.304+00:002012-11-23T08:49:15.304+00:00I suspect Ann Travers would not have caused the fu...I suspect Ann Travers would not have caused the fuss that she did if Sinn Fein hadn't appointed M/s Mc Ardle to a Special Adviser's post.Many might feel that this was always going to cause additional hurt to the Travers family.It hardly showed sensivitity from a party which claims to be in the forefront of standing up for the rights of Catholics(a la Caitriona Ruane).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5965333981619997978.post-72510094922863590272012-11-23T08:00:26.781+00:002012-11-23T08:00:26.781+00:00If you commit murder then you should accept the co...If you commit murder then you should accept the consequences.<br /><br />A conviction for murder disqualifies someone from tje civil service and special advisers are civil servants.<br /><br />No special rules for special advisers, please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com